PageFour Version 2

Work is underway on the next release of PageFour. It's late in coming, and for that I apologise. I know a lot of users were expecting a new version some time ago.

This forum will be used to report on the status of that release, as well as providing links to beta versions as they become available. Any suggestions for new features should be made in the Wish List forum.

There have always been two schools of thought on which direction PageFour should take. One set of users are enamoured by its simplicity, and don't want to see that change, while the other would like to see PageFour lean more towards Scrivener, with much more advanced outlining capabilities and writer specific features.

For version 2, I see PageFour charting a middle course between the two. It's not going to become a Windows version of Scrivener, but will be borrowing a feature or two from that excellent product.

To give you a taste of what's being worked on right now:

1. The introduction of Meta Data for pages and folders. This will mean the ability to add notes or summaries to each page, and view these summaries collectively as outlines.

2. A major overhaul of PageFour's Snapshots.

3. The introduction of a Bookmark system, allowing external files (pdfs, jpgs, web pages) to be linked to from PageFour pages, as well as an internal linking system between pages within PageFour.

4. An overhaul of the visual interface.

This forum will be updated as the work is completed, with beta versions made available for trial and discussion.

Darren
Monday, March 1st, 2010

IMO, anything you do to make it Scrivener-like will be popular. I need help with pre-writing as I detailed in my post in Wish List. I do not have a concrete idea for a feature; just need a lot of help capturing thoughts digitally. I said it all there. Thanks

Joan
Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010

I'm really delighted to see PageFour coming back to life again. I've written about it on my blog ages ago, but will bring it back to the attention of my readers this week.

I like the simplicity of PageFour currently -- but LOVE Scriviner even more. Almost gave up Windows in order to get Scriviner, but have too many other Windows programs, like PageFour, that I can't abandon.

Tom Colvin
Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010

While I use PageFour, I do really want Scriviner, or a Scriviner-like program, for Windows. For me any move to "with much more advanced outlining capabilities and writer specific features" would be much appreciated.

Meanwhile, thanks for your work on actively developing PageFour.

Bob
Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010

I appreciate the middle of the road approach. I use PageFour for many types of writing and its simplicity allows it to be multi-functional. I think the changes you've mentioned would improve its multi-functional use.

Josh
Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010

I'm excited to learn of V.2's new features, they sound terrific. Help the writers community stay on windows.
Hit us with those betas ;)

Michal
Thursday, March 4th, 2010

Although Scrivener is remarkable software, I found it had distractions that diluted its primary use for writing. I'm for maintaining the simplicity of PageFour with the few added features mentioned above.

Robert
Thursday, March 4th, 2010

Darren, this is awesome. I love PageFour and am happy to see it coming around; I love the idea of adding a few more writer-specific features and outlining help without getting TOO sophisticated and cumbersome. Keeping it clean and simple, and having a few more pre-writing capabilities, would be an idea product, IMO.

Those checking on this thread who want more Scrivener-like features may want to check out Liquid Story Binder. It's got a LOT of features. Me, I'm off to see what's in the wish list forum and see if there's anything I can contribute to help with PageFour.

Thanks again, Darren, it's a terrific piece of software.

Josh
Saturday, March 13th, 2010

@ Josh: It's interesting you mention Liquid Story Binder on this behalf. because with LSB it's just, what i hope will not happen to pagefour: it's way to complex, with nice abilities but with its many many windows and overloaded menu structure it totally distracts me everytime i try to use it (sometimes you need a change of tapestry so try another program like holidays, you know). and exactly therefore LSB seems to me WAY further away from what scrivener does than PageFour. or in short: everything has to stay practically "reachable with one click" - that would be a motto of choice, i dare say.

haendehoch
Thursday, March 18th, 2010

I don't think it's just a matter of keeping PageFour "simple" or "complex". It's a matter of elegance of the coding, and of gradually eveolving software design. You can make any software very complex, and yet, by virtue of elegance of design (I don't mean just how it looks on the screen) it's still a pleasurable and useful tool to use. I would, for example, classify somthing like Firefox as elegantly designed sofware. It's easy to use, and absolutely crucially, you can make it a very complex tool. I think it's got to do with tunneling down the options (meaning you hide complex option from the novice user who doesn't want them, and the advanced user will find them through minimal effort). It's not just plugins, it's also how the options page is structured, and other things, such as the GUI. Complexity doesn not make software unusable, if you created well-thought out (beautiful?) code. It's not the intelligence, it's the clever design.

Andrea
Friday, March 26th, 2010

Just on my topic above (and I hope this isn't a too dangerous comparison). Look at the PageFour web-page, then look at the Liquid software page. Both creators designed the code for their pages, or at least directed it's creation, I assume.

Andrea
Friday, March 26th, 2010

@ Andrea: "Liquid software page"?
You mean blackobelisksoftware's website?

haendehoch
Friday, March 26th, 2010

Hi, Darren:

A stupid question, for when the first beta? I'm impatient.

Ferran
Saturday, March 27th, 2010

It's a couple of months away yet Ferran.

Darren
Saturday, March 27th, 2010

I'm curious about the changes in the GUI. Could you post some screenshots? Doesn't need to be the final thing, just an appetizer for us followers. Also, great idea allowing links to external files. Thanks for that.

Nelson
Thursday, April 8th, 2010

No screen shots yet I'm afraid Nelson. The visual changes are at the bottom of the list. Though they're mapped out (but still subject to change), they won't be implemented until the other changes have been made.

Darren
Thursday, April 8th, 2010

Though Scrivener is certainly excellent writing software (IMO, Scrivener and Story Mill are 1 and 2 respectively on the Mac), both need considerable time to fully appreciate the depth of features. Scrivener's tutorial is not only helpful for beginners but, on first glance at Scrivener's multi-panelled Windows, seemingly necessary. PageFour seems to have a better balance between offering the most useful features, yet without discouraging those new to the program.

Whilst adding one or two new features from Scrivener will enhance PageFour even further (full screen mode, maybe the corkboard), there is something to be said for keeping an already excellent piece of writing software relatively uncomplicated, allowing writers to just write. As another poster mentioned, those wanting even more features might be interested in Liquid Story Binder. I've looked at LSB and feel that I'd have to invest too much time tinkering about with its numerous features (many, frankly speaking, seemingly fairly superfluous), making it unsuitable for my needs. Looking forward to PageFour v2 beta.

Ivan K.
Sunday, April 11th, 2010

HI Darren,

What i would realy love is a way to keep track of characters and locations. I don't need to link chars. to specific chapters that is making it to complex to use. But just a nice inspector like window always on the right side of the screen where you can browse info about your chars. and locs. would be a great and much appreciated addition.

Eendje
Thursday, April 29th, 2010

Hi Darren,

I think most users would prefer you spent your time getting version 2 out, which has been promised for over 2 years now, rather than you spending time updating your web site... Most users would also be happy to pay for the upgrade... Is version 2 really going to be released? Or is it just a marketing ploy?

Fiona
Sunday, May 9th, 2010

I'm using the trial version right now and a major factor that's keeping me from buying it is the fact that it's aesthetically unappealing to me. I just find it too...retro looking, for lack of a better word, so the fact that you plan on updating the visuals is quite exciting. I also appreciate how you're striving for simplicity while adding a few extra features. I look forward to trying out ver.2.

Kamiel
Wednesday, May 12th, 2010

All the features that you are planning to implement sound great! I, too, would be very happy with an improvement to the visual interface. The note/summary adding feature sounds great as well. Thanks so much Darren!

Sapphy
Wednesday, May 12th, 2010

Would you consider adding screenwriting capabilities to PageFour? I don't mean revision handling, just formatting -basically 4 o 5 styles-. The modular approach PageFour encourages is particulary well suited to both screenplays and stage plays, and it would be a unique piece of screenwriting software for Windows -Scrivener does this in Mac-. I don't know if you are familiar with screenplay formatting, but all it takes to make a pleasant screenplay editor are a couple of macros and the ability to switch them using just TAB and ENTER. I own Movie Magic Screenwriter 6 and also have access to Final Draft 8 and, while both are superb pieces of software, they aren't particulary well suited to write first drafts, their strenghs are in formatting and revision -and that's very good, because revisions would be a nightmare in a regular word processor-. If you are willing to consider adding screenwriting features to PageFour and want some information, just send me an e-mail and I'll help in anything I can.

Nelson
Friday, May 21st, 2010

Thanks Nelson. Not the first time somebody has brought up screen writing for PageFour.

Darren
Friday, May 21st, 2010

And is it a feature you'd consider?

Nelson
Friday, May 21st, 2010

Absolutely. No promises, but I'll certainly look into it.

Darren
Friday, May 21st, 2010

Of course. Thank you very much.

Nelson
Friday, May 21st, 2010

Hey Darren, do think the first beta will be out by November this years? It sounds great so far and I'd love to use it in NaNoWriMo! Thanks.

Sapphy
Monday, May 24th, 2010

It should be available before then Sapphy.

Darren
Monday, May 24th, 2010

Will there be a live word count in the new version? Because that's probably the one thing that I'd really like PageFour to have which isn't mentioned here. Thanks.

Anonymous
Friday, May 28th, 2010

A live word count is on the list, but I haven't looked at what's involved yet, so can't say whether or not it will make the release.

Darren
Sunday, May 30th, 2010

I would just like to throw my hat in for not getting too feature-creepy with the next version. I totally get what other people are advocating in terms of additional features, but Scrivener (I have used both Mac and PC for my writing) creeps into the same problem as Word or FinalDraft, which is that it tries to be all things to all writers. What I love about PageFour is that all I wanted was a mechanism for sorting multiple documents in a way that made sense to me as I was outlining and doing initial drafts. My concern is that as a netbook user more features means reduced speed, and FinalDraft can really be boggy on my Asus beyond page fifty.

I'm new to PageFour, so great work, Darren, and thank you for building such a useful, stable and zippy product. Some better basic outlining or formatting tools, just simple and reasonably configurable, would be awesome for a v2 for me. My only real specific feature request relates to my netbook use, which is that I'd love an all-up zoom or other features to allow me to gain back as much screen real estate as possible.

Thanks again!

Jason Groce
Thursday, June 10th, 2010

@Jason Groce: Final Draft, version 7 and 8, not 6, uses a lot of CPU in Windows. It's happened in the four computers I've tried. Probably that'w why you have problems in your netbook. Consider changing to Movie Magic Screenwriter 6. I bought it one year ago and it runs well even in my EeePC. Other screenwriting software I've tried, like Sophocles -R.I.P.-, Page2Stage or Celtx all work well in any Pc I've tried. This high CPU usage issue seems to be unique to Final Draft 7 and 8 -version 6 didn't suffer from it-, and so far there's no solution. I don't think Final Draft cares all that much about their Windows user base. You can't even ask them anything unless you have already purchased the software. If you can afford it, get MMS6. If you already own Final Draft then you probably can get a competitive upgrade and buy if for peanuts. By the way, I don't work for Write Brothers Inc. or anything, I'm just a happy customer.

Nelson
Tuesday, June 15th, 2010

Any news on a delivery date for v2?

Matt O
Saturday, July 10th, 2010

I've been wondering about that too, being the impatient person I am. Also, do you think you could post some screenshots when possible? Thanks Darren.

Wendy
Monday, July 19th, 2010

Been wondering about that for, well, I think it's going on a few years now...

dan
Monday, July 19th, 2010

I'll post updates as soon as they're available guys. Despite having the best of intentions, other projects keep pushing back the next release. But it is most definitely on the way.

Darren
Tuesday, July 20th, 2010

Just throwing in my two cents as well to advocate the 'keep it simple' approach. If I want something sparkly and complicated and Scrivener-like, I'll go for StoryBox. I like PageFour (current version) because it's functional and pleasant but not distracting. Also, I saw someone complain about the big icons--but I like them.

Marina
Friday, July 23rd, 2010

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